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Author Topic: Mistakes and other problems  (Read 159529 times)

Offline Ballistic Whistle

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #75 on: January 26, 2009, 04:49:41 pm »
The old 2.x era rule/understanding was that you had to be set and stationary in position before/during the first whistle blast. If you were on the track and moving, you were sent off for the whole jam. The rule was changed in 3.x to allow for movement of the skaters who were on the track to participate in the jam and was specifically written in as no impact/no penalty. With the addition of this rule, the understanding and practice is no penalties of any sort for people who are on the track between whatever lines are necessary for their position (Pivots/Blockers/Jammers).
So it seems we all have a pretty good idea of why this new rule was introduced. To allow skaters who were not in position, but were on the track and between or behind their relevant start lines) to play in the jam.

I'm going to stick with my assertion that just because something isn't listed under the impact section of penalties, doesn't mean that the action can contradict other wording in the rules. That really serves to undermine all sections of the rules other than those listed under section 6. I'm pretty sure that we're all happy about the introduction in 3.0 of the impact examples, but relying on them so critically as to disregard wording in different rules sections seems like a step backwards to me.

It seems that the train of thought on display by some here is that anything written outside of the impact examples is only a guideline and not set in stone. In closing I'm going to copy and paste a pertinent paragraph from the rules, which I think illustrates that the rules are written in such a way to allow for penalties not covered directly by the penalty examples (not just the impact examples):

"The following penalties are addressed in detail in the sections listed below. These sections hold specific examples that are to be followed explicitly. Illegal actions not specified below must be enforced using these specifics as guiding examples."

Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #76 on: January 26, 2009, 10:43:11 pm »
I'm going to stick with my assertion that just because something isn't listed under the impact section of penalties, doesn't mean that the action can contradict other wording in the rules. That really serves to undermine all sections of the rules other than those listed under section 6. I'm pretty sure that we're all happy about the introduction in 3.0 of the impact examples, but relying on them so critically as to disregard wording in different rules sections seems like a step backwards to me.

It seems that the train of thought on display by some here is that anything written outside of the impact examples is only a guideline and not set in stone. In closing I'm going to copy and paste a pertinent paragraph from the rules, which I think illustrates that the rules are written in such a way to allow for penalties not covered directly by the penalty examples (not just the impact examples):
"The following penalties are addressed in detail in the sections listed below. These sections hold specific examples that are to be followed explicitly. Illegal actions not specified below must be enforced using these specifics as guiding examples."


EXACTLY!
as i said earlier, this statement is more than enough to justify a penalty resulting from a player not adhering to the rules -- even if a specific penalty isnt listed

calling a section of the rules "guidelines" when the exact same wording was in the previous version of the rules - and resulted in penalties - well, it's confusing

i'm wondering if the practice of not bothering with the formation is something thats being experimented with to see if it works? or perhaps has evolved since the release of 3.1?

if so - that'd be great to know
it still doesn't change what's written in 3.1 though


hey skidmark - sweet diagrams  ;)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 10:32:53 pm by chugalug »
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #77 on: February 08, 2009, 09:13:32 pm »
So, my first head-reffing gig went without any major issues. I made one mistake though, luckily of very little consequence.
In the last jam of the first period, I gave a jammer get her 4th major. I didn't know until I reported the penalty that it was her 4th major. I then signaled to the penalty box to tell the skater she was ejected. She went over to her bench to give her helmet cover back and tell the bench coach that she had been ejected. The bench coach did not send someone to serve the remainder of the penalty, but continued to skate short. The jam ended, and the bench coach asked how much time was left on the jammer's penalty, so she could plan for the next period. I found that the penalty time had expired shortly before the jam ended.

Mistake 1: I did not know that a skater was close to being ejected.
What I plan to do: Do my best to check the boards for skaters who have 3 majors. Inform penalty trackers to notify me if they see that a skater has one more major, one more box trip, or one more minor before being ejected.

Mistake 2: The penalty time expired before the jam expired, and no one was in the box to take the track.
What I plan to do: I realize that part of this issue is the fault of the bench coach, because they should have subbed someone into the box. Though some of it falls directly in my hands. In the future, before I signal the ejection, I will first take a look at the jam clock to determine if the jam will end before the penalty will. If the skater would still be in the penalty box after the jam expires, I will go ahead and eject her and deal with any issues between jams. If not, I will notify the bench coach of the ejection, letting them know to put someone in there in the ejected skater's place. I will then follow through with the ejected skater to send her to the locker room.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #78 on: February 08, 2009, 09:24:54 pm »
Mistake 2: The penalty time expired before the jam expired, and no one was in the box to take the track.
What I plan to do: I realize that part of this issue is the fault of the bench coach, because they should have subbed someone into the box. Though some of it falls directly in my hands. In the future, before I signal the ejection, I will first take a look at the jam clock to determine if the jam will end before the penalty will. If the skater would still be in the penalty box after the jam expires, I will go ahead and eject her and deal with any issues between jams. If not, I will notify the bench coach of the ejection, letting them know to put someone in there in the ejected skater's place. I will then follow through with the ejected skater to send her to the locker room.

Wouldn't it be the responsibility of the bench coach to make sure someone took the ejected player's place int he box? I mean, they should know the rules too, and they should know that a sub can take that place. So if you were to go and let them know they can put someone int he box, wouldn't that be coaching?

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #79 on: February 08, 2009, 09:32:38 pm »
Wouldn't it be the responsibility of the bench coach to make sure someone took the ejected player's place int he box? I mean, they should know the rules too, and they should know that a sub can take that place. So if you were to go and let them know they can put someone int he box, wouldn't that be coaching?

It would be. I should have said let the coach know of the ejection SO they know to sub into the box. I don't think that would be coaching.
And before it is said... Yes, the bench coach should know exactly who is in the box at all times. This would just be what I can do to maintain fair gameplay.
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Offline Rev. Riot

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #80 on: February 08, 2009, 10:41:27 pm »
Maybe I'm spacing on some rule, but I don't feel like mid-jam substitutions are implicitly or explicitly allowed in the WFTDA rules, even for Ejections or Expulsions. Only if the penalty extends into the next jam is a substitute allowed.
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #81 on: February 08, 2009, 11:04:40 pm »
Maybe I'm spacing on some rule, but I don't feel like mid-jam substitutions are implicitly or explicitly allowed in the WFTDA rules, even for Ejections or Expulsions. Only if the penalty extends into the next jam is a substitute allowed.

6.5.1.5 When a skater fouls out of a game, the ejection applies to the current period only. It does not carry over to subsequent periods or games. The ejected skater must immediately leave the track and return to the locker room or staging area. She may not remain on the floor with her team or in an area where she can interfere with skaters on the track. Another player from her team must serve any applicable penalty time; this substitute must serve in the same position (Pivot, Blocker or Jammer) as the ejected skater. If applicable, her team must skate a player short (see Section 6.3.1).

It would be. I should have said let the coach know of the ejection SO they know to sub into the box. I don't think that would be coaching.
And before it is said... Yes, the bench coach should know exactly who is in the box at all times. This would just be what I can do to maintain fair gameplay.

That seems fair. I guess if the ejection happens mid-jam it would be tough to signal to the bench coach that there was, in fact, an ejection. Which then merits the question: is it possible that any ejection merits the stoppage of a jam? I know certain ones like fighting or gross misconduct do. But what about insubordination or fouling out of a game?

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #82 on: February 08, 2009, 11:11:40 pm »
6.5.1.5 When a skater fouls out of a game, the ejection applies to the current period only. It does not carry over to subsequent periods or games. The ejected skater must immediately leave the track and return to the locker room or staging area. She may not remain on the floor with her team or in an area where she can interfere with skaters on the track. Another player from her team must serve any applicable penalty time; this substitute must serve in the same position (Pivot, Blocker or Jammer) as the ejected skater. If applicable, her team must skate a player short (see Section 6.3.1).

You beat me to it. I see no indication that the mid-jam substitutions are anything but required in this case.

That seems fair. I guess if the ejection happens mid-jam it would be tough to signal to the bench coach that there was, in fact, an ejection. Which then merits the question: is it possible that any ejection merits the stoppage of a jam? I know certain ones like fighting or gross misconduct do. But what about insubordination or fouling out of a game?

An ejection does not merit stopping the jam. The action that caused the ejection might warrant stopping the jam. If the skater has simply fouled out, she should be sent off without stopping the jam.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #83 on: February 09, 2009, 03:31:03 am »
-Major Cutting the Track....


So somehow in my mind I got it stuck in my head that a skater cutting in front of the person who blocked them out=a Major.

I swear I don't know where I pulled that out of, but for most of the first period in our game lastnight thats how I called it ( fairly I hit both teams with it.)  The opposing coach called a time out and discussed it and I explained my position, the coach didn't argue (big kudos ,though he had every right) and the Jam ref and Head ref consulted the jam ref( being entirely correct) and the Head ref being diplomatic, kinda understood where I was coming from, but wasn't 100% sure so said "lets just call it as a minor the remainder of the period" when at the halftime I double checked the rules ( after agreeing with the Head Ref, hey, your the man, whatever you say boss!) and lo and behold..

I'm a dumbass..  I still have no clue where I picked up or had it in my mind that if you cut the blocker who blocked you out it was a major. I blame having to work the day before the bout.
But I know better now  :-[
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Offline bronco

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2009, 09:39:52 am »
Quote
The opposing coach called a time out

Oops, one more problem: coaches cannot call timeouts.  Only a captain or alternate can call a timeout:

Quote
2.6.2 To take the timeout, the Captain or Designated Alternate will signal the officials and
make a T signal with her hands, to indicate that she is requesting a timeout. Referees will
signal for the clock to stop. (See Section 2.8.2.2)

Not too big a deal, but dems da rules.  A coach should go through their C or A to request a timeout.
... Ref. Bronco

Offline angri-la

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2009, 10:00:51 am »
Quote
The opposing coach called a time out

Oops, one more problem: coaches cannot call timeouts.  Only a captain or alternate can call a timeout:

Quote
2.6.2 To take the timeout, the Captain or Designated Alternate will signal the officials and
make a T signal with her hands, to indicate that she is requesting a timeout. Referees will
signal for the clock to stop. (See Section 2.8.2.2)

Not too big a deal, but dems da rules.  A coach should go through their C or A to request a timeout.

The coach could be the alternate.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 10:02:25 am by angri-la »
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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #86 on: February 13, 2009, 03:15:34 pm »
Which brings up an interesting question.

How many designated Alternates is a team allowed?

1 Captain, 1 Alternate?
1 Captain, 2 Co Captains?
1 Captain, 1 Co Captain/Alternate, 1 Coach?

Thankfully in the above, though they had a Captain and 2 A Captains, ONLY the coach was designated to the Head ref as Alternate and only the Coach called timed outs, or talked to the Refs. 
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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #87 on: February 13, 2009, 03:43:04 pm »
From the Glossary:

Designated Alternate - The Captain selects an additional person to act in their stead; this person is the Designated Alternate. The Designate Alternate may be another skater, coach or manager. The Designated Alternate must be one of the sixteen individuals described in Section 2.1.4. A team shall only have one Designated Alternate.

2.1.4 The teams will have chairs or benches for their skaters in the infield or on the sidelines in designated team areas. Only those skaters who are on the roster for that game may sit or stand in the designated team area. Up to two support staff (team managers, coaches, or other non-skating players) per team are allowed in this area during game play.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 03:44:39 pm by L8R SK8R »

Offline bronco

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2009, 06:37:36 pm »
Thanks L8R!  Here is some additional clarification:

Quote

If the coach is not wearing an "A" on their arm, they cannot request a timeout directly from the head ref.

It may seem a bit trite, but I had a bout with co-captains and co-coaches.  In the coaches/captains meeting the head ref politely pointed out that only two of them may talk with the head ref.  They selected and the head ref instructed them to put a C and an A on their uniforms with a sharpie.  Done!

... Ref. Bronco

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Re: Mistakes and other problems
« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2009, 06:42:41 pm »
It is a good point to bring up though. I haven't put much thought to a coach or bench manager being an Designated Alternate. Its definitely a good thing to politely point out at a Captains meeting.

 

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